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[[User:KalypsoSig|KalypsoSig]] 00:44, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
 
[[User:KalypsoSig|KalypsoSig]] 00:44, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
   
:May I add my two cents' worth? As Gboyers mentioned, we are ''not'' Wikipedia. In fact, this is the very reason I "defected" from Wikipedia in the first place, i.e. the rules are far less draconian, and people are a lot more friendly (and usually not as anal). But what really got me hooked on GTW is the fact that although we strive for ''encyclopedic'' content, it does ''not'' preclude us to cut-and-dry Wikipedia-style commentary on the games, where all things are aimed at the ''broadest'' audience possible. We are here for ''gamers'' primarily. That means our intitiatives should be geared toward assisting gamers in their gaming experiences, and should educate the general public as a ''secondary'' goal. That having been said, if a major plot development is prominently displayed on a page that someone might inadvertently come across while researching a related part of the story, then it should be taken care of appropriately. I think ''all'' of us need to step back and realize the issue here: a gamer had a plot development spolied for him/her because of this...therefore, we, as GTW editors, should remedy the situation. '''[[User:Eganio|Eganio]]<sup>''[[User talk:Eganio|Talk]]''</sup>''' 00:50, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
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:May I add my two cents' worth? As Gboyers mentioned, we are ''not'' Wikipedia. In fact, this is the very reason I "defected" from Wikipedia in the first place, i.e. the rules are far less draconian, and people are a lot more friendly (and usually not as anal). But what really got me hooked on GTW is the fact that although we strive for ''encyclopedic'' content, it does ''not'' preclude us to cut-and-dry Wikipedia-style commentary on the games, where all things are aimed at the ''broadest'' audience possible. We are here for ''gamers'' primarily. That means our intitiatives should be geared toward assisting gamers in their gaming experiences, and should educate the general public as a ''secondary'' goal. That having been said, if a major plot development is prominently displayed on a page that someone might inadvertently come across while researching a related part of the story, then it should be taken care of appropriately. I think ''all'' of us need to step back and realize the issue here: a gamer had a plot development spoiled for him/her because of this. Therefore, we, as GTW editors, should remedy the situation. '''[[User:Eganio|Eganio]]<sup>''[[User talk:Eganio|Talk]]''</sup>''' 00:50, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Revision as of 00:51, 1 July 2008

I've added a spoiler alert to this page, because I came here only looking for info about Michelle the girlfriend - not knowing she was Karen - and now it's blown for me, along with other things I accidentally saw in just the first sentence.

I really think there needs to be a page for Michelle that looks like a normal GF page and has a spoil-free link to here. For that matter, the disambiguation page also contains this spoiler.

I added a spoiler alert in case anybody else made the very easy mistake of following Michelle from the disambiguation page and suddenly found themselves discovering a plot point and not what clothes she likes.

KalypsoSig 22:26, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Agreed - I've seen this happen a lot, and it's happened to me. Sorry about that. I'll get it fixed ASAP. Gboyers talk 22:31, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
I have to disagree. GTA IV has been out for over two months now and spoilers should surely be allowed on the site, in particular considering the spoilers have been on the article for a little while. Also, if this is implemented then I suggest marking all such pages with spoiler tags to prevent other people having a GTA game spoiled. A-Dust 22:46, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Ok, first, it really doesn't matter how long the game has been out OR how long the page has existed. The only people a spoiler alert affects are the people it is intended to reach - those who do not want the game to be spoiled. I don't see why adding an alert affects anybody who already knows this information.

Secondly, this is a really really easy spoiler to stumble upon! In fact, until I made a very minor edit to the disambiguation page, the spoiler was there too. The reason this plot point would have been so cool to discover is that you think she is only a girlfriend. That is the information I came here looking for. Not her storyline. I only wanted to know what, other bowling and darts, she would like to do most. None of this information is even present before the plotline is blown - or at all!

Like I said, there should be a Michelle (Girlfriend) page, and that page should link here. I would say the problem is solved if the link in the Michelle (Girlfriend) page contained the spoiler alert. That way you would not have to crowd the Karen page with it, since anyone who is searching for Karen already knows this info. The problem is that Michelle disambiguation page links directly here, and that in the first sentence in this article - and in fact, even in coming here from the disambiguation - blows a major plot point ...and it is completely, totally unnecessary.

As I have already stated, the game has been out for two months now and thus the information should, in my opinion, be regarded as common knowledge. Yes there are going to be people who don't know about certain things, but that is true of anything. I don't see why a spoiler warning should be put on here. This is not in line with other articles. Also, just look at Wikipedia, no spoiler warning. As for the spoiler, what did you expect to find on a website designed to be an encyclopedia of all events? Sorry if that sounds harsh, but to be honest it has to be said. Also, the warning for spoilers can be found on the Main Page, where it states

As our purpose is to provide complete detailed information, some pages may contain spoilers.

A-Dust 23:14, 30 June 2008 (UTC)


Firstly, we aren't Wikipedia. If we were, it would say Wikipedia at the top of the page. Our mission is to provide good GTA information and be helpful to GTA gamers. 2 months is NOT long enough for everyone to have bought the game, even if tens of millions of people have done so. We have always been delicate about GTA SA spoilers, and we should do the same with GTA IV. The way I've edited the pages now is to outline Karen and Michelle on different pages, since they have different names and appear at different stages of the game. Yes they are the same person, but this gives us a perfect opportunity to hide the spoilers. The text "later in the game" means "don't read this or click on it if you dont want to know". Yes people know spoilers are here, and yes all the information SHOULD be on this wiki, but a big plot device like that should not be on the first sentence like that. Gboyers talk 00:21, 1 July 2008 (UTC)


EDIT: Gboyers: I'm sorry, I didn't see your message before I posted this. KalypsoSig 00:47, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

The very fact that this conversation is happening lends to the idea that this is not common knowledge. If all the info on this site is common knowledge two months after the game comes out, then why does the site exist at all? What need would you have look for any information to begin with, if you assume that all of it is common knowledge? But this is not common knowledge, especially for someone who just opened the game. The point of these wikis are to serve the user, not contributor's egos, and assuming the user knows this information is unnecessarily elitist, and the worst part is that it is a disservice to the user. The issue is not whether or not these pages contain spoilers, because of course they must.

Michelle is a girlfriend first: This is really specific spoiler issue. This spoiler is particularly insidious because of the fact that until you know Michelle is Karen, a user is probably looking for information about Michelle the girlfriend, and it is very very easy to discover this spoiler completely on accident. I'd also like to add that even if the disambiguation page (simply when searching for "Michelle" like I did) didn't link directly to a spoiler, the Girlfriend page lists her as Karen. Karen is not a girlfriend. Michelle is. After she becomes Karen, you can no longer date her, therefore Karen is not a girlfriend.

Compromise: I offered a compromise in my previous post, which I think is totally reasonable. This Karen page contains no information about Michelle the girlfriend. That is why I think we need a Michelle (Girlfriend) page that links here with an alert. That way there could be a spoiler alert in the link to this page and we would not muddy up the Karen page with a spoiler alert. In this way, a user who is ignorant of these events does not have it spoiled, and those who do not want a huge, ugly spoiler alert at the top of the page can be satisfied as well. Currently the girlfriend info does not exist at all. Currently, this spoiler is too easy to stumble upon, and I think it is a completely valid point that should be addressed somehow.

Ultimately I'm looking for a solution, not an argument as to whether or not somebody who just bought the game should already know about this very pivotal plot point, and if they don't well screw them. I would think that a simple review of common courtesy would reveal this as the wrong position to take. KalypsoSig 00:44, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

May I add my two cents' worth? As Gboyers mentioned, we are not Wikipedia. In fact, this is the very reason I "defected" from Wikipedia in the first place, i.e. the rules are far less draconian, and people are a lot more friendly (and usually not as anal). But what really got me hooked on GTW is the fact that although we strive for encyclopedic content, it does not preclude us to cut-and-dry Wikipedia-style commentary on the games, where all things are aimed at the broadest audience possible. We are here for gamers primarily. That means our intitiatives should be geared toward assisting gamers in their gaming experiences, and should educate the general public as a secondary goal. That having been said, if a major plot development is prominently displayed on a page that someone might inadvertently come across while researching a related part of the story, then it should be taken care of appropriately. I think all of us need to step back and realize the issue here: a gamer had a plot development spoiled for him/her because of this. Therefore, we, as GTW editors, should remedy the situation. EganioTalk 00:50, 1 July 2008 (UTC)